[00:11:09] <Maniac> rowr
[00:11:47] <etrepum> hey
[00:12:36] <Maniac> don't know what's going on
[00:12:56] <Maniac> it's hosted on a work account not real hosting...
[00:13:57] <etrepum> does syncato support some kind of reStructuredText as input?
[00:14:59] <Maniac> not as far as i know. kimbro talked about textile support at one point but i dont' use that
[00:15:05] <etrepum> I more or less hate PyDS, but it is the only one that I could find that supports reStructuredText, renders to static files, and doesn't require Zope
[00:15:41] <Maniac> oh, not a fan of PyDS eh? that was my other candidate besides syncato
[00:16:02] <Maniac> it looks to me that my work connection is hosed, so it's probably not syncato's fault
[00:16:10] <Maniac> other pages are also not coming up
[00:16:17] <etrepum> It doesn't have a f**!@#ing preview
[00:16:37] <etrepum> if you want to preview, you have to turn upstreaming off (like a 6 click process), post, and then upstream again
[00:17:00] <Maniac> you edit your postings in a webUI?
[00:17:20] <etrepum> to an extent, reluctantly
[00:18:04] <Maniac> wow really lousy connection
[00:18:13] * Maniac should phone the isp tomorrow
[00:18:16] <etrepum> I usually type it up and paste it in, end up posting, and then see lots of things I want to fix/change
[00:18:45] <Maniac> i usually type either in emacs or quanta in html
[00:18:58] <etrepum> also, if you post something bogus it will upstream your content with exceptions in it
[00:19:16] <etrepum> rather than raising them to the interface when you click post
[00:19:58] <Maniac> hmm serious latency issues 
[00:20:03] <etrepum> that's IRC
[00:20:12] <etrepum> not IRC's fault apparently
[00:20:20] <etrepum> maybe it's just me multitasking ?
[00:24:59] <etrepum> StructuralFeature sure has a lot of stuff baked in for all sorts of different objects
[00:25:16] <etrepum> none of them being a mapping :)
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[00:27:00] <_Maniac> grr
[00:27:11] <etrepum> looks like you're having fun
[00:27:20] <_Maniac> not really :)
[00:27:36] <_Maniac> i can't figure out why the connection is hosed
[00:27:40] <_Maniac> generally it's very good
[00:27:44] <etrepum> I'm not having fun trying to add mapping to peak.model, either :)
[00:28:25] <_Maniac> ok and now the site is very responsive....
[00:29:16] <etrepum> yeah it works now, odd
[00:30:36] <_Maniac> of course, it's also running in a UML instance on the machine... too many variables
[00:31:01] <etrepum> I had no idea that roundup had some little query language in it
[00:31:27] <etrepum> (re: db.issue.filter from the second article)
[00:31:34] <_Maniac> :)
[00:31:44] <_Maniac> neither did i until i needed it last week :)
[00:31:51] <_Maniac> then i took a look
[00:32:07] <etrepum> what are you doing w/ the roundup api?  polling it and sending out change notices or what?
[00:32:09] <_Maniac> it's not incredibly robust
[00:32:22] <_Maniac> i used it to do some imports from old trackers
[00:32:30] <_Maniac> well, homebuilt databases really
[00:32:34] <etrepum> ah
[00:32:45] <_Maniac> so export from postgresql import into roundup
[00:32:54] <etrepum> makes sense
[00:33:47] <_Maniac> but i'm also wrapping it up as a peak managedconnection so i can use it via peak DM's
[00:34:10] <etrepum> spiff
[00:34:39] <_Maniac> but that's internal stuff, and not code worthy to show anyone :)
[00:35:34] <etrepum> what the heck does StructuralFeature._setup mean?
[00:35:50] <_Maniac> ha, i have no idea not using any of that stuff myself
[00:37:25] <_Maniac> time for bed
[00:37:31] <etrepum> later
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[04:15:24] <vlado> morning
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[05:05:46] <jack-e> mornin
[05:10:22] <gbay> mornin'
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[16:44:44] <Maniac> wow full house
[16:44:52] <Maniac> (relatively speaking)
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[17:11:43] <_jpl_> You scared them away
[17:13:18] <_jpl_> I've been checking out PyDS, by the way.  It's quite an interesting app.
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[18:02:11] <_jpl_> gday gbay
[18:23:36] <_Maniac_> hola peakers :)
[18:27:25] <_jpl_> Greetings
[18:30:14] <dmwaters> {global notice} Hi all! we appear to  be having bad luck today.:) we're currently looking into the services crash, and why our main rotation server just disappeared. any further messages will be given in wallops "/mode your_nick +w"
[18:50:35] <etrepum> PyDS is indeed "interesting"
[18:51:03] <etrepum> in a gwar-eats-children sort of way :)
[18:51:08] <etrepum> I use PyDS, it's pretty scary
[18:57:51] <gbay> gday _jpl_, some time too late =), I'm off anyhow, have a good day all 
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[19:07:00] <_jpl_> scary how?
[19:28:48] <_Maniac_> _jpl_, read some of etrepum's PyDS comments from yesterday
[19:29:05] <_Maniac_> he's not a big fan :)
[19:29:41] <_Maniac_> anyways _jpl_, you need a weblog, i insist
[19:32:07] <etrepum> the fact that he uses cheetah templates ${extensively} should be enough to scare anyone away
[19:33:01] <etrepum> it does get quite annoying, because you actually have to remember to \$escape dollar signs in your reST text, because it goes straight to cheetah (may have been fixed though)
[19:35:04] <etrepum> anyways, I use it because it's the only blog I've found that does reST and can render static html files
[19:35:11] <etrepum> other than that it bothers me
[19:36:40] <etrepum> oh, and it uses a lot of threads :)
[19:36:47] <etrepum> which is a receipe for disaster and weird performance
[19:37:24] <etrepum> I count 14 running threads
[19:41:01] <_jpl_> "other than that it bothers me" ?
[19:42:00] <_jpl_> Maniac: I decided to start one so I can rant^H^H^H^Htalk about all the PB+SSH work I've been doing lately.
[19:42:27] <_jpl_> I'm about ready to break the neck of the Conch developer.
[19:42:58] <_jpl_> Actually, all of Twisted should just be rewritten using PEAK.
[19:43:16] <_jpl_> Hmm, perhaps one day I could just rewrite Conch for peak.net.
[19:44:35] <etrepum> the conch developer is like 17
[19:44:39] <etrepum> give him a break :)
[19:44:57] <_Maniac_> _jpl_,  carefull etrepum is a twisted fan :)
[19:45:08] <_jpl_> seriously?  Ok, I'll cut him some slack.
[19:45:11] <etrepum> in other words, I hate everything about PyDS except for the fact that it uses reST and renders statically
[19:45:21] <_Maniac_> try textilism
[19:45:35] <_Maniac_> http://www.textpattern.com/
[19:45:47] <_Maniac_> of course it doesn't render anything statically (afaik)
[19:45:51] <etrepum> I'm not a big twisted fan per se, but I think everyone should be using async networking in Python
[19:46:18] <_jpl_> pyBlosxom seems to do Textile
[19:46:31] <etrepum> whether it's on top of twisted, asyncore, or some yet-to-be-developed stackless python framework
[19:46:32] <_Maniac_> twisted is the largest most complete ansync networking library for python
[19:46:42] <_Maniac_> so by default your a fan :)
[19:46:45] <_jpl_> async networking, yes.  deferreds and callbacks, no.
[19:46:47] <etrepum> yes i know it is, it's also got a lot of rough edges
[19:47:10] <_Maniac_> anywho, _jpl_, what i meant was, do you get to choose a cgi based weblog or only static?
[19:47:16] <etrepum> deferreds and callbacks were the only way to do it in a really abstract generic way when twisted started
[19:47:18] <_Maniac_> or do you get to run a server?
[19:47:42] <etrepum> I hated twisted at first too, but then I got used to it because it was better than rolling everything on my own with asyncore
[19:47:43] <_jpl_> I can run CGI, so I looked at pyBlosxom first, but it's rather lacking in features.
[19:47:46] <_Maniac_> it occured to me that if i ever change jobs i'd be screwed with syncato (not that that's a concern)
[19:48:03] <_Maniac_> since it requires a server process (webware)
[19:48:06] <etrepum> I tried pyBlosxom, but I couldn't get the thing to install and work properly
[19:48:12] <_Maniac_> and libxml python bindings
[19:48:34] <_Maniac_> just use MT like 98% of bloggers
[19:48:51] <etrepum> my *only requirements* are reST and static rendering
[19:48:56] <etrepum> MT only does one of those
[19:49:10] <_Maniac_> oh, well reST is a pythonic requirement :)
[19:49:42] <etrepum> <ok><sorry><I would="rather" /><type><like><a href="this"></a>
[19:49:42] <_Maniac_> how many other blogs have reSt and static rendering?  none methinks
[19:49:46] <_jpl_> So now that there's a better way to do deferreds/callbacks (peak.events), it's time for some re-writing.
[19:50:02] <etrepum> I was the first person to propose a twisted-wrapper using generators
[19:50:08] <etrepum> maybe in like april last year
[19:50:13] <_Maniac_> etrepum, i know typing html sucks
[19:50:16] <etrepum> but I couldn't get them to switch to 2.2 at the time
[19:50:26] <etrepum> so I couldn't put generators in twisted core
[19:50:30] <_Maniac_> quotient requires 2.3 iirc
[19:50:32] <etrepum> I've been using it in my own code
[19:50:37] <etrepum> yes it does
[19:50:43] <etrepum> quotient didn't exist last april either
[19:50:43] <_jpl_> Using what, peak.events?
[19:51:02] <etrepum> no, using the generators-instead-of-deferreds implementation I wrote almost a year ago
[19:51:02] <_Maniac_> etrepum, do you have a job? 
[19:51:19] <_jpl_> Ah. Have you checked out p.e?
[19:51:33] <etrepum> No, I'm not currently writing any normal-python networking code
[19:51:40] <etrepum> I am working on a stackless networking framework though
[19:51:47] <etrepum> which I will surely integrate with peak
[19:52:14] <etrepum> I'm currently in between jobs, freelancing
[19:52:40] <etrepum> freelancing / slacking off :)
[19:54:36] <etrepum> doing stuff I couldn't do when I had a job, like book a trip to berlin and amsterdam on a whim
[19:54:36] <etrepum> does this textpattern thing have anything to do with reST?
[19:54:52] <_Maniac_> cool
[19:54:52] <_jpl_> What part of the world are you in?
[19:54:53] <_Maniac_> ooo, bob has juice
[19:54:53] <_Maniac_> 338 hits today on pycs.net
[19:55:22] <etrepum> I would rather type blog entries in LaTeX than HTML
[19:55:37] <etrepum> I'm in NYC
[19:55:55] <_Maniac_> textpattern uses textile
[19:56:08] <_Maniac_> similar in concept to rest i think just different syntax
[19:56:21] <_Maniac_> but no static rendering afaict
[19:56:30] <etrepum> bleh
[19:57:02] <etrepum> python syntax highlighting is a requirement also, but that comes for free with reST because I already wrote that code
[19:57:36] <_Maniac_> etrepum, sounds like your stuck with PyDS
[19:57:46] <etrepum> exactly
[19:57:47] <_Maniac_> python syntax highlighting would be nice
[19:57:55] * _Maniac_ considers that for syncato
[19:58:13] <etrepum> well I added python syntax highlighting with almost no effort to reST
[19:58:25] <etrepum> and I like reST syntax, so I want to stay with reST
[19:58:39] <etrepum> it helps that I also use it to write documentation and such
[19:58:53] <etrepum> one human-readable markup langauge to rule them all :)
[20:00:36] <etrepum> there's also an OS X app that does live preview of reST
[20:17:49] <etrepum> wow, you're right, I do have a lot of juice today
[20:18:32] <etrepum> two or three days ago, speno's blog was about to pass mine.. within like tens of hits
[20:18:43] <etrepum> now I'm over 1000 hits ahead
[20:19:54] <etrepum> must be because I got two daily python urls in the same day, haha
[20:27:29] <_jpl_> I'm with you on reST... I've been trying to get people at work to switch to it.
[20:27:42] <_jpl_> Unfortunately most of the developers here use Word.  8O
[20:28:44] <_jpl_> How does one get a named blog on pycs.net?  Some have names, others have numbers.
[20:28:47] <etrepum> oh another reason I don't like PyDS is that it's all scary with its own threading/locking/metakit/cheetah system, so I'm afraid to touch the templates beyond the customization I already did once.. to do things like add FOAF, technorati, etc.
[20:28:48] <etrepum> you ask
[20:29:32] <etrepum> I wondered the same thing when I first got on PyCS
[20:29:37] <_jpl_> Oh, my blog-with-one-test-entry is on the recently updated list on pycs.
[20:29:40] <etrepum> then I asked phillip, and he gave me one
[20:32:45] <_jpl_> cool, thanks.
[20:33:33] <_jpl_> I've resorted to monkey-patching the conch classes in order to simplify. :o
[20:34:39] <etrepum> ph33r the LGPL license though
[20:35:27] <etrepum> conch is probably way better than the other pure python ssh implementation
[20:35:47] <etrepum> if nothing else, it has more features (last I checked) and has been around longer than the other one
[20:37:45] <_jpl_> I vaguely remember hearing about another one, but is it even async?
[20:39:26] <etrepum> I don't think it is
[22:13:36] <_Maniac_> yay _jpl_
[22:14:03] <_Maniac_> test
[22:14:54] <_Maniac_> who pays for all the bandwidth on pycs.net?
[22:16:45] <etrepum> phillip probably hosts it
[22:16:58] <etrepum> "all the bandwidth" .. it's text!
[22:18:37] <etrepum> I'm sure the PSF or someone else would pay for it if it became a problem
[22:19:01] <etrepum> or it would just move elsewhere with a sponsor
[22:34:45] <_jpl_> yay me?
[22:38:01] <_Maniac_> eh? my blog consumes 40-50 mb a month. multiply that by 100 or so weblogs and you would have a little no?
[22:41:22] <_Maniac_> anyways it was an idle question :)
[22:44:04] <etrepum> it's more like 10 blogs that might do enough traffic to matter
[22:44:34] <etrepum> 10 people had more than 20 hits today
[22:46:03] <etrepum> pycs's traffic could probably be reasonably hosted off of a SDSL line.. anyone with a friend that works at or owns an ISP can easily get that kind of hosting for nothing
[22:48:02] <etrepum> the same IP is also running his personal/business sites
[22:51:43] <_Maniac_> ja
[22:51:47] <_Maniac_> ah
[22:52:06] <etrepum> I think it is kind of strange that bzero (his minimal blogging software) is not open source
[22:53:21] <_Maniac_> the single biggest consumer of my weblog is google
[22:53:46] <etrepum> that's probably the case for just about every website if you think about it
[22:54:05] <etrepum> you would need a single person to traverse every page in your website a couple times a month in order to beat google
[23:02:13] <_jpl_> I feel dirty for what I've just done with conch.
[23:02:22] <_jpl_> But it works.
[23:04:37] <etrepum> twisted can easily make one feel pretty dirty
[23:05:32] <_jpl_> soiled, even.
[23:06:20] <etrepum> and you even get LGPL sludge to go along with it
[23:06:56] <_jpl_> On the bright side, the monkeypatching made it possible to get rid of three or four classes.
[23:07:09] <etrepum> in exchange for pain
[23:07:49] <etrepum> someone should just add macros to python and get it over with
[23:09:30] <etrepum> then we could write nice looking code that generated all the mess that twisted or generator abuse requires
[23:09:51] <etrepum> or, if running on stackless, it could just generate clean code :)
[23:10:11] <_jpl_> I wonder if I'm using the right terminology.  By monkeypatch I mean that I instantiate an object and create or overwrite methods on the instance, basically rewiring them to other objects or using them to set events.Condition objects.
[23:10:43] <etrepum> that's the same monkeypatch I know
[23:10:50] <_jpl_> ok, just checking.
[23:11:09] <_jpl_> Twisted begs for it the way it requires you to subclass just to receive event notifications.
[23:12:03] <etrepum> I actually wrote my own mini-version of twisted that was entirely based on deferreds instead of that event notification garbage
[23:12:05] <_jpl_> I don't know why they didn't just implement some basic pub/sub functionality from the beginning.
[23:12:37] <etrepum> I did end up having to emulate tail call recursion in order to get it to run when reading more than a few hundred lines or so :)
[23:13:19] <_jpl_> uh huh
[23:14:23] <etrepum> I rewrote deferred to be like 800% faster and have no recursion problems, but they ignored my patch
[23:14:36] <etrepum> of course I could just commit it, but it's kind of scary looking
[23:17:15] <_jpl_> defer.Deferred is already a bit scary looking
[23:17:40] <etrepum> http://twistedmatrix.com/users/roundup.twistd/twisted/file139/defer.py
[23:18:30] <etrepum> _runCallbacks breaks a pythonism or two (it can't really be overridded from a subclass)
[23:18:40] <etrepum> but it's way faster and doesn't blow the stack
[23:18:52] <_jpl_> cool
[23:20:28] <etrepum> I'm not really interested in core-python networking anymore.. I've more or less given up, and am going to just do stackless from now on
[23:21:13] <_Maniac_> etrepum, you are smart
[23:21:58] <etrepum> two years of working with twisted-related code was enough proof enough that it's possible to do in regular python but it sucks :)
[23:22:02] <etrepum> er
[23:22:14] <etrepum> s/enough proof/proof
[23:23:33] <etrepum> the bonus of the stackless networking framework that I'm developing is that I can steal those awful unscalable standard library implementations and just fix them up a little
[23:23:43] <etrepum> or I can make it integrate with any of the async frameworks
[23:24:17] <etrepum> because socket.recv(...) can do whatever, whenever, I want it to :)
[23:24:27] <_jpl_> Do you have a viewable CVS repository anywhere?
[23:24:30] <etrepum> no
[23:24:37] <etrepum> it's very primitive and OS X specific right now
[23:25:24] <etrepum> haven't had much time for it lately, big freelance project
[23:26:55] <etrepum> I think I'm just going to break down and make it depend on PyProtocols
[23:28:42] <_jpl_> good idea
[23:28:59] * _Maniac_ curses caching
[23:30:53] <_jpl_> ugh, I just can't think of a cleaner way to organize all these objects and conditions.
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[23:31:07] <_jpl_> At least with peak.events the flow is a lot clearer.
[23:31:09] <pje> Hey.
[23:31:14] <_jpl_> Hey Phllip
[23:31:22] <_jpl_> phllp
[23:31:29] <pje> Bob: you'll be happy to know that the wiki now has reST support.
[23:31:39] <etrepum> I saw that in RecentChanges
[23:31:43] <_jpl_> nice
[23:31:45] <pje> Use #format rst on the first line of the text.
[23:32:02] <etrepum> yeah.. I knew MoinMoin *could* do that, but MoinMoin is a beast
[23:32:05] <pje> It's all part of my master plan to get all you folks to help me write docs.  :)
[23:32:31] <pje> Well, the version I have doesn't do it.  I had to hack on it a fair bit, and add a lot to its CSS.
[23:32:39] <_jpl_> I'm definitely more likely to write docs if I can use reST
[23:32:58] <pje> Cool.
[23:33:07] <etrepum> I definitely had some issues remembering how to write MoinMoin text in order to make that wiki entry
[23:33:07] <pje> I was worried it'd be an unpopular decision.  :)
[23:33:34] <pje> But I needed a format that was portable; I want to make it so we can draft things on the Wiki and move them to CVS as part of the distro.
[23:33:46] <_jpl_> indeed
[23:33:57] <pje> A lot of my tests in RecentChanges were to work out how to deal with emulating the links the final docs would need.
[23:34:10] <_jpl_> I meant to ask a while ago about reST in the Wiki for that very reason.
[23:34:12] <etrepum> well someday there will be a non-suck wiki that has built-in reST and versioning
[23:34:22] <etrepum> at least I hope so
[23:34:52] <pje> It looks like we'll be able to emulate directories by doing stuff like going to http://peak.telecommunity.com/DevCenter/howtos/events-howto.html
[23:35:07] <etrepum> cute
[23:35:15] <pje> And I hacked up the reST support so that it generates Wiki-compatible links if you use a relative URL that starts with '.' or '..'.
[23:35:27] <etrepum> you are a brave man, hacking the MoinMoin source.
[23:35:38] <pje> I only hacked the reST support.
[23:35:41] <pje> Replaced it, really.
[23:35:59] <pje> So I was really hacking docutils, effectively.
[23:36:06] <pje> I also had to hack the 'include' directive so it'
[23:36:11] <pje> s not a security risk.  :)
[23:36:12] <etrepum> that's true
[23:36:29] <etrepum> I imagine that MoinMoin has other security risks :)
[23:36:52] <pje> Anyway, so I hacked up an HTML writer that detects relative links, and then converts them into funky Wiki URLs.
[23:37:06] <etrepum> sounds great
[23:37:12] <pje> e.g. 'howtos_2fevents-howto_2ehtml'
[23:37:13] <etrepum> you really do want people to write documentation
[23:37:23] <pje> Absofragginlutely.  :)
[23:37:56] <etrepum> I think it's about time for wikis to grow up and use `foo`_ instead of WikiWords :)
[23:37:56] <_jpl_> After all that hard work we can't let you down
[23:38:00] <pje> R.D. Murray (and all the anonymous contributors since) showed me that the Wiki collaboration model really works.
[23:38:23] <pje> But it also showed me that wiki markup absolutely had to go.  :)
[23:38:39] <_jpl_> hate wikiwords
[23:39:05] <etrepum> WikiWords always happen when you don't want them to
[23:39:12] <pje> My concept so far is that I'll periodically update CVS from the Wiki, after editing others' contributions.
[23:39:29] <etrepum> like MoinMoin will markup IFooBar as I[FooBar]
[23:39:36] <pje> Yep.
[23:39:50] <pje> That's particularly annoying.
[23:39:55] <etrepum> for sure
[23:40:02] <etrepum> imagine writing PyProtocols tutorials in Moin syntax
[23:40:05] <etrepum> :)
[23:40:12] <pje> But more to the point, it's not portable, it's not suitable for book-length works, and there's no PDF output.
[23:40:23] <pje> etc. etc.
[23:40:28] <etrepum> obviously
[23:40:56] <etrepum> reST is the new LaTeX (for everything but math) as far as I'm concerned
[23:41:23] <_jpl_> better, for what it's meant for
[23:41:31] <etrepum> well obviously
[23:41:32] <pje> Yeah, the Python doc tools (that I used for PyProtocols and the PEAK tutorial attempt) are awfully verbose.
[23:42:03] <etrepum> I'm really surprised that reST wasn't invented a looong time ago
[23:42:16] <pje> I'm kind of surprised that nobody's done a reST -> Python doc tools converter.
[23:42:33] <etrepum> imagine how standards compliant the web would be if people had been composing content in reST the whole time
[23:42:44] <etrepum> or how many more people would be able to produce content
[23:42:46] <pje> Although I guess there are plenty of Python macros reST doesn't support.
[23:43:01] <etrepum> well you can always extend reST to do whatever you want
[23:43:08] <pje> Yep.
[23:43:36] <pje> I was particularly impressed at the way epydoc can use reST as a fully-functional alternative to its JavaDoc-esque epytext.
[23:43:37] <etrepum> like for example, it doesn't syntax highlight python code out of the box, which surprised me
[23:44:03] <pje> Unfortunately, epydoc doesn't play well with PEAK.
[23:44:41] <_jpl_> No
[23:44:51] <_jpl_> Especially on peak.model classes
[23:45:02] <pje> I've been wanting for a long time to write something with the nice formatting, indexing, and so forth of epydoc, with the source parsing of HappyDoc, and the introspective power of having real objects.
[23:45:24] <pje> But realistically, API docs are now a lower priority than guide/overview stuff
[23:45:35] <etrepum> does the PEAK reST wiki do syntax highlighting?
[23:48:23] <etrepum> doesn't look like it :)
[23:48:35] <etrepum> you should install http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/252170 or http://www.pycs.net/bob/weblog/2003/11/10.html#P7
[23:48:46] <etrepum> (there may be others)
[23:49:02] <etrepum> mine is pure python, but not the smartest syntax highlighting in the world
[23:49:14] <etrepum> (I didn't write it, just plugged together..)
[23:50:17] <etrepum> certainly better than no syntax highlighting
[23:54:14] <pje> That one only supports HTML.
[23:54:34] <etrepum> well, that is all that matters for the wiki
[23:54:59] <etrepum> easy enough to make it a no-op for pdf output
[23:55:06] <etrepum> if it doesn't already
[23:55:22] <pje> Well, not so much a no-op as a fallback to a literal block.
[23:55:31] <etrepum> that's what I meant
[23:55:40] <etrepum> no different than .. ::