[00:00:39] backing up rdmurray, the uml is an excellent way to visulise objects consistantly [00:01:10] <_jpl_> Yes. [00:04:55] fundamentally - the Guido model is capable of infinate extension whereas the Matrix is obviously someones interpretation of the M$ dream [00:05:25] <_jpl_> ? [00:06:28] to move into space we need a system that is not inherently captured - M$ may not be able to box us and plug out heads in but they clearly would like to [00:06:48] <_jpl_> Clearly. [00:07:30] the basic tools are design - transport - construction - life support - and communication [00:07:59] design comes first - so we need the best os tool possible [00:09:16] <_jpl_> Yes, so there's ArgoUML and Umbrello. Nothing terribly advanced, but useful. [00:10:04] my vision is of a cad tool that can directly interface with software and hardware [00:10:39] <_jpl_> That's a different sort of "design"... [00:12:06] <_jpl_> Unless you mean using a CAD tool for some aspects of CASE ? [00:12:23] i have build over $200 million in construction projects - over 30 years and seen tiny improvements [00:13:27] CASE is a lot like CPM and I have done a great deal of that [00:15:55] the os project 'Planner' is still struggling in infancy [00:16:50] but is active and worthy - the design process for software, machines, and buildings is fundamentally the same [00:19:32] consider http://www.anansispaceworks.com/Documentation/BuildImage [00:20:01] these people have similar ideas and the parts align well [00:20:53] their little program is an interesting compromise to the scalabile graphics problem too [00:21:01] scalable [00:22:36] the 'sketch' project is also interesting and in python [00:22:59] http://sketch.sourceforge.net/ [00:24:48] also there is that stickey word 'enterprise' how do you see that rdmurray, _jpl_ [00:25:22] <_jpl_> What's "sticky" about it? [00:26:08] there are many 'enterprise' software projects - all with different ideas about what that word means [00:27:51] to me 'enterprise' is to a business as 'career' is to a person [00:29:12] I think "enterprise" level computing happens any time there is more than one database (database interpreted broadly) involved in the operation of a single program. [00:29:51] But that is off-the-cuff :) [00:29:59] rdmurray: i think that is what they call client/server [00:30:43] i have some training in sybase methodology and their version of 'enterprise' [00:30:49] <_jpl_> They're not the same thing. [00:33:22] rdmurray: if you look at how 'enteprise' systems are marketed you will see that the two databases people are trying to connect are inventory and accounting [00:34:32] look at http://www.sas.com/ [00:34:47] that is a big bear there son [00:35:06] Yes. [00:35:58] if i could comprehend half of that package i would need 3 brains to do it [00:36:27] The idea system would connect the following databases: inventory, accounting, billing, sales leads, sales proposals, and last but not least, project management :) :) [00:36:48] <_jpl_> Those are all silly things. [00:37:32] * rdmurray boggles, and waits for enlightenment. [00:38:05] you pegged me there _jpl_, last but not least [00:39:00] <_jpl_> No enlightement is forthcoming. :) [00:40:49] _jpl_: we are in some ways at the dawn of time - enlightenment is going to be fairly primitive - you may have more than you realize [00:41:45] wow all kinds of philosophy in #peak tonight [00:41:59] <_jpl_> Ah, if you really want to talk about philosophy... [00:42:08] no not really :P [00:42:10] project management is analagious in every way to the idea system listed [00:42:41] search for "programming language" on google [00:42:47] the same architecture - especially uml - can work for pm [00:43:59] http://www.google.ca/search?q=programming+language&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&meta= [00:44:59] <_jpl_> Let's talk about ontology. [00:45:12] python steals a lot of thunder Maniac - it is elegant [00:45:37] but who woulda thunk it woulda topped perl and java? [00:46:27] Well, google is written in python, after all :) [00:46:31] <_jpl_> Parts of it. [00:46:35] yes [00:46:42] ontology [00:46:42] n : the metaphysical study of the nature of being and existence [00:46:44] which is only proper for a python system :) [00:47:19] now search on google: "miserable failure" [00:47:51] Maniac: a crashed xp computer will lead you far down the path tword suicide - dont go there [00:48:11] <_jpl_> So does Python "exist"? [00:49:17] did you do the last google search? [00:49:40] _jpl_: existance is well within the licence - i just want to know if anyone has looked at a few things - and yes i ded the search [00:50:01] <_jpl_> It's old news, Maniac. :) [00:50:18] hey, i just dont' know if #PEAK-ers are up on the news :) [00:51:33] oh btw - i tried to recruit some postgresql people for you - i need an example using postgres [00:53:05] <_jpl_> Recruit for who? What are "postgresql people"? [00:53:31] aha ! i have sucessfully googled jpl [00:53:33] postgresql database - [00:54:10] <_jpl_> And found "miserable failure"? [00:54:21] i asked them to post an example to the wiki [00:54:30] <_jpl_> Asked who? [00:54:33] <_jpl_> And example of what? [00:54:39] <_jpl_> Speak in complete sentences, man! [00:55:06] people in #postgresql - that is a scary group [00:55:15] jpl, no found your resume [00:55:24] <_jpl_> Oh, that's pretty old [00:55:31] only up to 2001 [00:55:35] <_jpl_> Well, a year old. [00:55:48] <_jpl_> Doesn't have all my PEAK experience on it yet. :) [00:55:59] i asked for a database example of peak interface _jpl_ [00:56:00] :) [00:56:46] gem_cat, how do you mean? [00:56:50] you must look for gempoet to find my resume - it is very old though [00:57:35] <_jpl_> gem_cat, look at the PEAK wiki for a few database examples [00:57:35] there is a database example in the literature for peak - but it is not enough for me to follow [00:57:49] i looked at those [00:57:53] <_jpl_> I've done a little bit of a PEAK database programming tutorial, but there's almost nothing there to speak of yet... [00:58:33] <_jpl_> What sort of example are you interested in? [00:58:37] i also ordered a couple of more books :( [00:58:49] i wouldn't think it would need to be postgresql specific [00:58:50] ? [00:58:58] <_jpl_> No, it shouldn't be [00:59:08] a nice generalized transaction object would do for a start [00:59:32] <_jpl_> gem_cat, that's already in my simple example. [01:00:01] i must not have clicked - will look some more when my books come in [01:00:37] gem_cat: it's probably simpler than you are looking for, but if you take a look at the IntroToPeak item (a work in progress) the basic stuff is covered there (once you get to chapter 3). [01:01:20] <_jpl_> The books will just distract you. [01:01:38] anyway peak is an excellent idea - and i am enjouing it - the books are on postgresql [01:02:12] <_jpl_> You shouldn't really need those, either, I wouldn't think. [01:02:36] <_jpl_> Unless you're going to do some advanced pg. [01:03:41] _jpl_: unless i somewhere find a budget and some programmers i am not doing much advanced programming [01:03:48] <_jpl_> Even then, the online docs are pretty good. [01:05:12] Some people just like to read books, jpl :) [01:05:22] _jpl_, i like to read books :) [01:05:34] <_jpl_> Not me, I just keep hundreds of them on my shelves. [01:05:48] i keep enough on my shelf to not look dumb [01:05:51] * rdmurray wonders if IntroToPeak will ever see a print run. [01:06:03] Nah, the codebase will change to fast. [01:06:10] heh [01:06:19] * Maniac hugs PEAK [01:06:29] i have taken to using it, even if badly [01:07:20] I'm so busy writing about it I haven't had time to try using it yet :) [01:07:36] i am using it to write my jabber/irc bot [01:07:47] (currently only jabber) [01:08:01] somethings are peakish others not... [01:09:35] <_jpl_> It takes a while for the PEAK way of doing things to really sink in, but once it does... [01:11:34] next i have to add some kind of security... (which means persistent users, which means peak.storage et all) [01:12:37] <_jpl_> Shouldn't you be the peak.security expert by now? [01:14:26] ha! [01:14:52] i have *played* with it but i need to *use* it and even after that I will always be a *user* not an expert.... [01:14:58] :P [01:15:04] <_jpl_> I've heard that about you. [01:15:18] * Maniac eyes _jpl_ suspiciously [01:15:31] <_jpl_> user! [01:15:44] * _jpl_ eyes himself suspiciously [01:16:07] * Maniac eye's his bedtime [01:16:21] * Maniac contemplates the social interactions of an IRC channel [01:16:47] * Maniac wonders if he's using '/me' too often or just the right amount [01:16:55] <_jpl_> A little too often. [01:17:18] thanks for the interaction Maniac - i have had too much time to think lately [01:18:03] gem_cat, actually i'm just too tired to do anything productive, so i'm mumbling on irc whilst surfing the web [01:18:17] and i'm actively trying to avoid using '/me' to appease _jpl_ [01:18:25] <_jpl_> :) [01:18:39] * _jpl_ smiles [01:19:05] i'm also reconsidering my earlier strategy of having all plugins in a directory auto-load and eyeing on of pje's latest emails [01:19:12] s/on/one [01:19:34] <_jpl_> If you're auto-loading, try the [Component Factories] magic. [01:19:46] i didn't really understand it [01:19:50] * rdmurray . o O (I want a /thought command, but I don't have one) [01:19:53] '/me reviews the email [01:20:15] <_jpl_> It's easy, in fact one of the easiest things to use in PEAK. Just look at the peak.ini file for some examples. [01:21:03] * _jpl_ <--- former MOO junkie [01:21:09] MOO? [01:21:42] <_jpl_> http://lambda.moo.mud.org/ [01:21:47] Mud, Object Oriented. [01:22:12] MUD, of course, stands for Multi User Dungeon (I think) [01:22:42] <_jpl_> or Dimension [01:22:42] After that, I'll let your imagination run wild :) [01:22:49] revisionist :) [01:23:46] how would that help auto-load [01:24:51] nm, i'm sleeping now [01:24:53] ...... [01:25:02] zZzZzZzZzZzZZZZzzzz [01:25:37] i do notice jack-e has been at the office for days straight..... [01:25:46] <_jpl_> sounds like me [01:25:56] * _jpl_ <--- still at the office [01:26:03] * _jpl_ playing chess [01:27:35] my wife just turnd in her grades for 4 beginning accounting classes and she will sleep for 2/3 days after a couple of all night grading sessions - i will wisely stay clear [01:28:12] <_jpl_> So I think I'll actually go home. See you around. [01:28:20] nite [01:28:52] ** _jpl_ has left us [01:35:10] will reread all that tutorial rdmurray - thanks and good nite [01:35:19] ** gem_cat has left us [02:06:38] ** gpciceri has joined us [09:20:13] ** vlado_ has joined us [10:44:13] ** gpciceri has joined us [13:25:30] ** hazmat has joined us